(courtesy of http://www.redorbit.com)Over this past Shabbos I witnessed something a little disturbing. Someone asked 2 yeshiva bochurim if the Sun revolved around the Earth or the Earth revolved around the Sun. When the first boy was asked he said the Sun revolves around the Earth. Of course I took this as a joke that he was mocking such a silly and obvious answer to the question. It wasnt until the second bochur was asked that I couldnt believe what I was hearing. The second bochur said the same thing! Then he kind of toyed back and forth with each idea and then said, "No actually I think the Earth revolves around the sun.....right?"
Do yeshiva students not learn basic science, math, and english? Then again are these subjects really that important, or aid in the purpose of a Jew's mission in Olam Hazeh? I guess as a Baal Teshuva who just about has a BFA, I feel that anyone should know such a simple thing as 4th grade science. Learning Torah is of course the priority, but how to these bochurs go to Law School and get Masters later in life if they dont know the basics. Maybe these 2 cases do not represent the majority of frum children.
It seems that todays Torah Community rejects science because it is a tool that is perverted to Chashve Shalom "prove" Hashem doesnt exisit. Others would argue the total opposite and say that not only does science prove Hashems power over the universe, but it helps to explain his process. The Rambam himself " strove to reconcile Aristotelian philosophy and science with the teachings of the Torah."
Of course my future children, iy"H will attend a Haredi type school, but if they are deprived on such common knowledge, I will have to fill in the gaps.
Do yeshiva students not learn basic science, math, and english? Then again are these subjects really that important, or aid in the purpose of a Jew's mission in Olam Hazeh? I guess as a Baal Teshuva who just about has a BFA, I feel that anyone should know such a simple thing as 4th grade science. Learning Torah is of course the priority, but how to these bochurs go to Law School and get Masters later in life if they dont know the basics. Maybe these 2 cases do not represent the majority of frum children.
It seems that todays Torah Community rejects science because it is a tool that is perverted to Chashve Shalom "prove" Hashem doesnt exisit. Others would argue the total opposite and say that not only does science prove Hashems power over the universe, but it helps to explain his process. The Rambam himself " strove to reconcile Aristotelian philosophy and science with the teachings of the Torah."
Of course my future children, iy"H will attend a Haredi type school, but if they are deprived on such common knowledge, I will have to fill in the gaps.
15 comments:
B"H
Hello Long Beach,
This is exactly my experience. Unfortunately, Yeshiva students hardly learn any science at all today. I myself wrote about this many times, as some elderly Haredim complained to me about their youth.
I know the elderly Haredim from the National Library in Jerusalem and one of them is writing a book about philosophy.
How Greek philosophy influenced Jewish thought and terminology.
Tell me one young Yeshiva student who is dealing with such or a similar subject.
It is very sad and if the Rambam, the Ramban or even the Vilna Gaon came back today, they would probably faint and start praying for this generation.
Please see the article titled Geocentrism in this link (about half way down: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112226/jewish/Issues-in-Torah-and-Science.htm
Also, see an article by Einstein's student, Hans Reichenbach on Relativity and Geocentrism: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/113104/jewish/Appendix-3.-Relativity-and-Geocentrism.htm
It seems that the Torah view is that the Sun and planets revolve around the Earth, while the scientific view is that we in principle cannot know.
I'll post the former article here:
Geocentrism
By the Grace of G-d
23rd of Elul, 57288
Brooklyn, NY
Greeting and Blessing:
I am in receipt of your letter of September 10th, in which you touch upon the question of whether the sun revolves around the earth or vice versa, in view of the fact that you heard from a college student that the truth is that the earth revolves around the sun.
It greatly surprises me that, according to your letter, the student declared that science has resolved that the earth revolves around the sun. The surprising thing is that a person making such a declaration would be about one half a century behind the times insofar as the position of modern science is concerned. This belief is completely refuted by the theory of Relativity, which has been accepted by all scientists as the basis for all the branches of science.
One of the basic elements of this theory is that when two bodies in space are in motion relative to one another (actually the theory was initiated on the basis of the movements of stars, planets, the earth, etc.), science declares with absolute certainty that from the scientific point of view both possibilities are equally valid, namely that the earth revolves around the sun, or the sun revolves around the earth.
An essential point in the above conclusion is that it is not based on a lack of more definitive knowledge, but this is the inevitable conclusion based upon the present position of science, namely that in principle it is impossible that there would ever be scientifically proven which of the two, the sun or the earth, revolves around the other.
Needless to say, any particular scientist, like any individual, is entitled to his own opinion as to which alternative he prefers, or that he simply is inclined to believe in one rather than in the other.
However, this is only an expression of a personal preference, which any individual human being is entitled to. But it would not be true to say that science has resolved the question in favor of one school of thought against the other.
To be sure, there were scientists who made such declarations over one half century ago, as mentioned above, and this provides at least some explanation why the textbooks in the elementary schools have still retained that outdated position. However, it is surprising that a college student, who has already passed through high school and has entered college, and should therefore have some knowledge of the theory of Relativity, should attribute to science such an unscientific and obsolete statement.
To sum up the above, it is clear that where one says that it is possible to be a scientist and accept the idea that the sun revolves around the earth, and another one says that science rejects this idea – I emphasize the word science, as distinct from scientist, a human being - no more, as mentioned above – the first one has both his feet firmly on a scientific foundation, modern science, while the second one appears to have remained in the world and time of Copernicus.
I assume from your letter that it is unnecessary to emphasize to you the truth that a Jew's life and his daily conduct must revolve around the Will of the Creator, the Creator of heaven and earth, in a way that it is expressed in action, since, as our Sages said the essential thing is the deed.
The present days of Elul are particularly auspicious to advance and to go from strength to strength in this direction, and to do so with joy and gladness of heart. Hoping to hear good news from you, and wishing you and yours a Kesivo v'Chasimo Tovo, for a truly good and sweet year,
With blessing,
/signature
Even wikipedia quotes the view of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, as well as various scientific theories, about geocentrism. Look up Geocentrism on wikipedia.
Shana Tovah friend
The Lubavitcher Rebbe at least from the letter seems to accept the Theory of Relativity which states that it is impossible to figure out which revolves around the other unless you destroy one of them.
Quoting wikipedia.org
Only a small minority of Orthodox Jews, particularly followers of the Lubavitcher Rebbe maintain a geocentric model of the universe, based on the aforementioned Biblical verses and their interpretation of Maimonides to the effect that he ruled that the earth is orbited by the sun. This is an important basis in his calculation of Rosh Chodesh (the first day of the Jewish lunar month), however the great majority of Jewish religious scholars, who accept the divinity of the Bible and accept many of Maimonides' rulings as legally binding do not believe that the Bible or Maimonides command a belief in geocentrism"
Now the question is who besides Chabad accepts modern day geocentrism?
That's a fair question Long Beach. Not sure who else holds like this.
Although I have more to say about the issue, I realise that your initial point was more to do with providing aspects of secular education (i.e., basic phsysics, astronomy etc) to FFB children, rather than the issue of the Torah and/or scientific perspective of geoncentrism vs heliocentrism per se.
Briefly, I believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe maintains that it is innapropriate for FFB's to go to college etc because of the inherent dangers, lack of modesty, unJewish outlook etc etc. However, for baalei teshuvah who have grown up in such an environment and who already possess a college education or who are within the midst of secular studies, he would generally encourage such individuals to continue, reach as high in their field as possible, and use there status (in the eyes of many not-yet-frum Jews) to show that science is not a contradiction toward, and in fact in many areas attests to, the truth of Torah - as you yourself have affirmed. Unfortunately, there is a pervasive misconception regarding a supposed Torah-science conflict.
Long Beach, I do not wish to appear arrogant (and please forgive me if I have failed in this respect), nor speak negatively about any other legitimate Orthodox movements, or individual Jews. I just wanted to share the previous thoughts as I stumbled accross this blog by hashgacha pratis as I was searching something different.
Wishing you and all the other readers a year of revealed blessings, especially for our bretheren in Eretz Yisroel.
What do yeshiva kiddies make of dinosaur bones or are they just not told of them?
Genuine question. Genuinely curious.
Now the question is who besides Chabad accepts modern day geocentrism?
Chabad doesn’t accept modern-day geocentrism. Chabad accepts common sense. According to common sense, when two objects move one relative to another, one should say which one is moving, and which one is at rest according to convenience. To say that one is “absolutely” moving, while the other one is “absolutely” at rest is to declare absoluteness of motion, which denies all of modern physics, going all the way back to Galileo.
To explain the forces creating shapes of the planets’ motion (which led to understanding of gravity), Kepler had to declare Sun as motionless and each individual planet as moving. To be able to measure time, marked by Earth’s rotation around its axis relative to Sun — or any other astronomical changes relevant to Halacha by serving as simanim for ruchniyusdike processes — it makes sense to declare Earth as motionless and Sun as moving. In everyday life too, it would be very difficult not to assume geocentrism in measurement of time.
Neither Earth nor Sun are “really” moving — declaring one of them as moving is a matter of convention. Saying “in winter Earth is far from Sun” is the same as “in winter, Sun is far from Earth”.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe at least from the letter seems to accept the Theory of Relativity which states that it is impossible to figure out which revolves around the other unless you destroy one of them. [Emphasis added.]
Neither the Rebbe in the letter nor Einstein in Theory of Relativity says the part in bold.
If the earth revolves around the sun , then why di yehioshua stop ths sun and not the earth.??? You see from tanach that the sun revolves around the earth...
Shlomo-
That is the most convincing defense of the Sun revolving around the Earth. Did you deduce that yourself or is there some Torah Authority that brings this as a source? The Geocentric model is not universal in Torah Judaism, and I find it hard to believe that many of the great Gedolim and Rebbeim missed this very famous Pasuk.
Still, its a good one. Gets me thinking.
Thanks for reading.
The problem with the relativistic argument is that relativity does not apply that way in a rotational system. Only in a linear one.
As for Yehoshua stopping the sun, do you also believe that Hashem has a literal finger? Arm? Tanach frequently uses metaphorical language.
Im not familiar enough with the theory of Relativity, so i will have to research its linear and rotational implications.
I do believe that Yehoshua stopped the sun. It cant be compared to the metaphor of the body parts describing Hashems attributes.
Because then you will have to say that of all Tanach.
As for Moses splitting the sea, do you also believe that Hashem had a literal finger?
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B"H
Long beach hassid,
Did you research its linear and rotational implications.
I was asked the same question by a doctor who read the rebbes responsa.
Yossi
Not only does the earth revolve around the sun but all the other planets also revolve around the sun,Also the Chabad claim the universe is 6000 yrs old when modern science has proved that the universe is over 13 billion years old..The Rebbe could not understand where the fossils millions of yeRs old came from. But we do
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